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Visiting John Forster(username: sturdibox)
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Comparison: latest homicide victims vs feticide
1. All these victims were sinners and had broken civil and divine laws that God requires good men to punish. The fetus, though spiritually dead in Adam, has never had opportunity to exercise his will to commit sin or crime.
2. Most of these victims had possibilities of escape or defense available to them, the fetus being executed by his parents has no possibility to evade, escape, or defend.
3. These humans were killed by an enemy who was disposed to hate them, and they had the warning that they were in danger. The fetus knows nothing, but nature, itself, has no surer promise than that your mother and father would care more about your life than anyone else.
4. The government did not desire this mass murder and will expend effort and expense, and participate with your desire and tax dollars to identify, apprehend, and punish the criminal(s) responsible for the death of these few people.
5. The government, in just one sparsely populated State (OR) purposely provides for, guards, and even takes your tax dollars to pay for most of the 40+ feticides every business day, in encouraging parents to murder their own children.
6. Three times the population of the State have voted to continue utilizing tax dollars to continue this mass murder.
7. Supposedly Pro-Life advocates whom you might think desire a law which will make this kind of murder illegal, when asked, "What penalty should the law enforce upon the person with the most control over this murder?" insist there should be no punishment for this crime.
Dave ChristensenJudge not John. You're treading on some thin ice!!
Dave ChristensenJohn Forster , You are welcome to your opinion of course. I very much doubt that anything I say here will have any effect on your perception of the world. Obviously, you are drawing an analogy between the recent night club shooting and legal abortion. I actually found your argument interesting enough to read. You are not a stupid person. However, the first sentence of your rant did set my teeth on edge. You wrote: "All these victims were sinners and had broken civil and divine laws that God requires good men to punish." I would ask that you re-examine this statement in light of what we learn about the shooter. Was he a god-inspired "good man"? Did these "sinners" deserve capital punishment for their crimes? It seems to me that your analysis suggests that vigilantism is justified in certain cases to rid the world of "sinners". Am I not reading you correctly?
Patty IrbyRomans 3:23 We all fall short of the glory of God. We are not supposed to be the judge or jury either.
John ForsterDave Christensen Actually I know almost nothing about the whole situation, who the shooter was, or who the victims were. All you need for the principle is that some of the victims were adults. I was not assuming that any victims were being justly recompensed for any rational action they might have done. I was only pleading for a ranking of our outrage and rational thinking and diligent action based on a reasonable comparison between the two different examples of human life.
John ForsterDave Christensen I am not at all suggesting that any sins that Jesus will not judge as crimes -- should be punished by other men. I believe the Bible strictly prohibits citizen, voter, legislator, judge, or policeman - to punish a man unless we are assured that God has revealed to us that we must.
John ForsterPatty Irby On judging? there certainly is a proper application of the words of Jesus on the guarantee that we will be judged (at least) by the standards we use to judge others. However, when it comes to those sins which are crimes, that some men are called upon to punish in other men -- we don't have a choice or an option. We can't help judging good and evil whether we like it or not. You, by the picture you posted, judge that it is evil for a man to control a rifle capable of semi-automatic fire, that that this should be codified and taught as the law of the land, and that some kind of punishment should be inflicted upon that man by a policeman or a soldier should he be caught with one. How do you know, if you should advocate punishment of that man, that Jesus would not judge you as a murderer (if you take his life in enforcement of that law) or a thief (if you take his property away from him), or a kidnapper (if you lock him away at tax-payer's expense)?
Dave ChristensenJohn Forster Yes, I got that. It was a well-written rant and I enjoyed hearing your point of view. Lots of new information coming out since then, not the least of which is the shooter's own sexual orientation. Still a tragic loss of life.
John ForsterDave Christensen Do you believe it is a more tragic loss of human life, or smashing at the image of God in Man -- in proportion to the Nation, than the daily count of fathers and mothers executing their unborn offspring for no sin or crime at all? Do you think that is the only legitimate capital punishment being carried out in our country with the government's blessing and tax-funding?
Dave ChristensenJohn Forster Society has the right and obligation to protect its citizens against dangerous criminals. As flawed as it is, our justice system is given the authority, by the people, to carry out the laws of the land. Divine justice is another matter entirely.
John ForsterDave Christensen What is the obligation of the justice system upon the murdering parents against the most innocent and helpless of the nation's citizens?
John ForsterDave Christensen When you say the justice system is given the right by the people to protect....which people are you including in that group, and is there any standard outside of the group whereby any man might know whether that group of people were wrong in the punishment they defined for any particular crime? Or must we all be forced to accept what that group of people decide?
Dave ChristensenJohn Forster That is why I struggle with capital punishment. Too many people have been unjustly convicted of capital crimes and later exonerated by subsequent compelling evidence. Our system of government allows for change to occur, but it occurs s...See More
John ForsterDave Christensen Do you think Jesus will exonerate the murdered unborn children by the subsequent compelling evidence that they were "MAN", as opposed to plant, animal, or mineral....as in "by man his blood shall be shed"?
Dave ChristensenIn general John, it is my personal belief that IF (you will note my big if ;), there is a final judgment by an all powerful entity, all will be taken into account. A supernatural being will not need any exculpatory evidence as all will be laid bare. I am not a believer, as you probably figured out by now. So by your biblical standards, I'm already lost. I believe in a natural universe where there are many unanswered questions. We all do the best we can to live day by day. But that's a whole different discussion. Suffice it to say that IMHO the decision about abortion (subject to many legal constraints) is the sole responsibility of the woman along with her family, doctor, partner, clergy (if desired) and other close friends. It is I'm sure an agonizing decision that is never forgotten. Others who want to judge her behavior should pay more attention to their own lives and behavior.
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